A Conversation with Rosemarie LoSasso: Healing our mind one day at a time

Rosemarie LoSasso worked closely with Kenneth and Gloria Wapnick for decades, editing his books and audios and teaching at the Foundation for A Course in Miracles  from its earliest days in the 1980s until her retirement from the Foundation in 2018. I talked with her again recently about practicing A Course in Miracles in the classroom of our lives. I hope you will find our conversation and her gentle, practical wisdom as helpful to your practice as I have! 

 

The pandemic has been such a challenging classroom for everyone. I felt like I had made some real progress over the years using my special relationship with my husband as a forgiveness classroom and gradually seeing our shared interest in finding our way home beyond our personal differences.  But COVID made me sometimes question whether I’ve made progress at all.

I have preexisting health conditions, was very frightened by the virus and felt like my husband wasn’t taking precautions seriously enough. He had to continue to work through the shut down which was good financially but also exposed him to possible infection. His lax attention to safety protocols (from my perspective) made me feel constantly exposed in our home. We thought he had COVID several times and knew quite a few people in our circle who contracted COVD in the fall when cases were surging again in Colorado. None of them was hospitalized but several are still dealing with lingering side effects.

During this time, I often felt I was going backwards as a Course student. I practiced forgiveness, reminding myself I was not really angry or frightened because of COVID or my husband’s behavior, but the feelings persisted. Can you speak to that idea of feeling that you’re not as far along as you thought and how to look at that awareness?  

Well, I don’t think that judgment that “I’m not as far along as I thought” is justified. It implies that you knew where you were on your path and that you shouldn’t feel what you’re feeling now; and that if you had really made as much progress as you thought you did you wouldn’t get all your buttons pushed the way you have in these new circumstances. And that’s not justified. I know you in particular have thought about where you were ten years ago or fifteen years ago and you couldn’t have faced some of the things you’ve faced recently back then with applying the Course principles and practicing it the way you have.

So, I think you have to be very careful about the judgment that you should have been able to handle this better. If you hadn’t done all the work you did, maybe you couldn’t have gotten through these new circumstances as well as you have. All of your previous work and willingness to practice the Course have brought you to this place. Even though your buttons are getting pushed and you get into a rage or depression or whatever, you’re able to get through it and not go off the deep end altogether – all because of your previous work.

I think it’s a mistake to feel that you’re failing in some way because you have been deeply affected at times and very emotionally affected. You have to be very careful of those kinds of judgments. The differences between you and your husband as you say have become more pronounced now that you don’t have those breaks where you can get away, but that’s a good thing because as painful as it is, it’s an opportunity to let go of more of the ego. You never thought you could still get as angry or be so afraid of something external like this virus, but obviously you can because that’s what’s happened. But it doesn’t mean you haven’t accomplished anything; it’s more that you’re ready to go deeper and look at what’s still there in your relationship with your ego. So just be careful of judging where you are.

This is, as you know, a process. And what’s behind all of these reactions is the guilt over our self-accusation of having attacked Love, left God, left our true Self in the dust, giving rise to guilt and then the fear of punishment and the need for all these defenses. We thus have a need to project the guilt and it lands on a spouse or any other person.  We now have this opportunity to look at another layer. That’s the nature of the process and it’s possible to even feel grateful for that. We can only go so far at a given time in our lives and our relationships and then they get tested even more. The Course uses the word “temptation.” During these very unusual circumstances, at least in our lifetime, there’s a tremendous temptation to throw up our hands and say this Course doesn’t work, I haven’t accomplished anything, thus falling into just where the ego wants us to be.

I think you have to do this one day at a time. It’s very difficult. I don’t mean to minimize what we’re all going through and will continue to face for some time. I think what can help is to have a statement from A Course in Miracles such as “This world was over long ago” (Text Chapter 28 I., paragraph 1, line 6) that reminds us there’s another way of looking at this. Not that we can really believe that statement or act on it without going into massive denial, but it gives us a jolt that reminds us that things aren’t what they seem at all, there’s another way of perceiving this. With regard to the depression or dejection or emotional exhaustion many of us have faced over this, just remembering the Course’s teaching that the miracle “merely looks on devastation, and reminds the mind that what it sees is false” (Workbook II 13, paragraph 1, line 2) can help. It’s the Course’s answer to the temptation to look on devastation and make it real, claim there is no hope, I’m exhausted, I can’t do this anymore.

So, that’s the nature of the process. Trials are but lessons that you failed to learn presented once again. (Paraphrased from Text 31 VIII., paragraph 3, line 1) We have an opportunity to make another choice, day in and day out, one day at a time. And again, and I know you do this, at the beginning of the day you set a goal and remind yourself that this life, your life, is a classroom. But what is it that you want to learn today? What is it you would like to let go of a little more? And that gives a purpose to your day and your life. That doesn’t make it easy. But it gives us an opportunity to see that this is a setup. We’ve set it up this way individually and collectively so we would wind up feeling hopeless and discouraged. Each time it happens, though, we can try to catch it and say “there I go again,” that’s straight out of the ego strategy of “it’s not my fault.”

That’s really helpful, Rosemarie. And I guess whenever we find ourselves judging our progress with the Course that should be a clue that we’ve chosen the ego as our inner teacher. One of the things that came up for me while I listened to what you were saying was how horrifying it felt to experience how little I really cared about the other person’s experience. If we’ve been practicing forgiveness in our relationships for a while, we’ve certainly had glimpses of that self-centeredness of the ego. But this felt like being locked in a vault with the awareness that I didn’t really care what was going on with him. At times I was totally self-absorbed, self-protecting, almost unable to empathize and it was shocking. A Course in Miracles tells us that the ego thought system is always “one or the other.” You’re guilty or I’m guilty and it looks like it’s you. You know that quote in the Course where we’re told we want to throw our brother off the precipice? (Text Chapter 24 V., paragraph 4, line 2) Well, it felt like that sometimes.

Usually when those kinds of thoughts would come up before the pandemic I could kind of distract myself in some way to avoid really facing them. So, maybe one of the hidden gifts of this is that I couldn’t not see it and so eventually it forced me to look at it with Jesus/Holy Spirit and as you were saying, embrace something true and comforting from the Course. Because the horror of what’s at the root of this ego thought system of trying to always portray ourselves as the less guilty one, it does feel devastating.

That’s excellent, Susan—to realize you did get a glimpse of it before but you couldn’t handle it. This had to come out at some point or other. In fact, I recently had that kind of experience in a relationship I realized was almost a hundred percent dependency. That bothered me and then I realized I didn’t really care about her; I just wanted my needs met and she could do that for me. I actually felt sick to my stomach when I realized that I was saying, I don’t care about you; I don’t care what your needs are, just pay attention to me. But we have to get to that point of recognition. That’s what every relationship in this world is about. That’s what our lives are about. Recognizing that they are projections in form of our minds’ decisions, they get us back to our minds where we remember that we can choose a different perception, a right-minded perception.

That experience you had of realizing you didn’t care about him–it’s me or you–takes us back as students of the Course to the awareness that that’s a reflection of what we believe we did to God. I don’t care about you God, just let me out of here. I want my own life; I don’t need you. And the guilt over that is unspeakable. That is what we accuse ourselves of even though it never happened in reality. But that’s what is behind these reactions in our special relationships when we get to that point when we realize: I really don’t care about you; just continue to meet my needs and I’ll even tell you how to meet them.

And it feels like it’s our very survival at stake.

And for the ego it is. The ego thought system says that my survival depends on your subjugation to my needs, and so it’s the ego thought system that’s struggling to survive. So, we have to face it, as ugly as it may seem and as devastating as it feels. You know, I thought I was a nice, kind, considerate person and look at this. I don’t care about you; all I want is for you to care about me and do what I want you to do for me. That’s just awful, but that is the nature of special relationships and why there’s so much in the Course about that.

I think you used the word “gift.” One of the gifts locked away in these circumstances is it’s going to bring out some deeper layers of the ego in us which ultimately is a good thing. Jesus says you have to look at the depth of your hatred but I’ll help you. You really shouldn’t even attempt to do it alone, it’s too painful. Take my hand and we’ll look together. You don’t have to do anything other than look with Jesus’ love next to you. You don’t have to change it.

Our defense against all that is to rant and rave against this other person and get the other person to change. And you have plenty of support for that viewpoint. He should be more sensitive; he shouldn’t associate with so many other people during this pandemic, and on and on until it becomes too painful and you recognize the way you’re going about this is really awful. But it seems so justified because you’re getting so much backup from the news and scientists and medicine to keep your distance from other people, sanitize this and that; and then the person you’re living with violates all of that and you feel justified in feeling so angry.

But you’re also a Course student and you know that that feeling is a red flag–that there’s something else going on here. Even though it would be a good thing for him to abide by the rules, that really has nothing to do with your perception, how you’re experiencing and interpreting this. “Projection makes perception.” (Text Chapter 21, Introduction, line 1) I’m upset and it’s not my fault. He upset me. But that’s not true because even if he changed on this, you would get upset about something else.

Yes, and we’re beginning to experience that as we move into this transition at least from the acute phase of the virus’ threat. But it was such a perfect setup, the idea that I can completely control my peace and sense of safety but then you’re the wild card. You walk in the door and my control over peace goes to hell. 

And yet as an A Course in Miracles student who has been practicing a while, you can’t fully accept that. You can’t completely deny the answer anymore. The thought that I must be wrong about the real cause of this reaction was still always there but at times it didn’t even seem to make a dent on the feelings.

It forces us to dig a little deeper and say, you know, this is kind of funny. There’s something wrong with this. You’re deceiving yourself that it’s not your fault, but something about it doesn’t feel right. It’s a big step to realize something else is going on here and then at some point to get a glimpse that it’s a setup. And the horrible thought is I want it. I want him to be this way. I want there to be chaos in the world. I want there to be a pandemic. And you think, no, that can’t be true, but then you see that yes, that’s exactly what this Course is saying. I couldn’t experience any of this if I didn’t really want to because it’s made up.

And then you can say, well, what would it be like if I didn’t hold this against him, or against this political figure or anyone else, wherever your anger is directed. What would my experience be if I let that go? And then all hell breaks loose and you panic. And you say, oh, that’s it, now I’ve got it; it has nothing to do with the person or the pandemic or the financial or political chaos. I’m reacting to those as if they are the problem. But the problem is never in the world, never with anything outside me. The problem is only what I’m holding against myself.

There’s a section in Chapter 31, “The Self-Accused,” where Jesus says you never hate another for their sins but only for yours. The gun is pointed at my head and I’m pointing it. It’s horrible to get to that awareness but there won’t be real change until we do at least acknowledge it intellectually and then gradually integrate it into not only our thinking but our reactions to situations and relationships–to really see that the problem is never outside us. In that section in the text, Jesus says that this is something “that must be overlearned so that it becomes your first response to every situation that occurs.”

The gentle part of the Course is that we’re never asked to do it perfectly. There’s no pressure. We do the best we can in any given instance. And I think that’s what you were saying, too. I’m doing the best I can right now–and to really be OK with that and know that Jesus is right there with you and doesn’t expect any more than that; to really believe that it’s OK that I still get angry and fearful. That’s what it means to have a split mind–to just be able to observe yourself going through it and know that’s perfectly normal. That’s the nature of the process.

I do think that over time it became easier to accept where I was. And I had the thought, and I think that’s part of what you’re saying, that if we are accepting where we’re at that means we must have chosen Jesus’ perspective because that’s not something the ego would support.

Exactly.

Even though we still may seem stuck, we’re not all the way stuck and we’re not alone.

Right. If we could do it all at once and awaken, we wouldn’t need the Course. But the fear of letting go all together and remembering that “You are at home in God, dreaming of exile …” (Text Chapter 10, paragraph 2, line 1) is so much greater than we could ever imagine. That’s way too fearful and when we try it, we freak out because, Oh, my gosh; there’s nothing left of me. And that’s true but we’re not yet ready to accept that, as desirable as it may seem given that I don’t like who I am anyway, I don’t like being a human being living in the world, but paradoxically I’m terrified of not being that.

So, it’s a real conflict and very painful. One day we won’t be able to tolerate the pain anymore. The Course says it will just be a natural transition, not a tremendous, cataclysmic change. And I think we’re accomplishing it every day every time we ask for help and make a little bit of a shift. To see that I don’t want to continue to see this person as somebody who’s just there to meet my needs–I’m tired of that. And that little willingness, Jesus tells us, saves us a thousand years. It helps us realize, what do I know? We all think we’re ruled by linear time and we know what that is and Jesus says no, you’re totally messed up and don’t understand anything and you’d be much better off accepting that. You have given everything the meaning it has for you (Workbook lesson 2).

Yes. But in the condition that we think we’re in as bodies, this pandemic has lasted a long time and it’s not over yet. Many of us found it physically terrifying, especially those with underlying conditions or who are more vulnerable because of age. And it was also financially threatening for so many. Many people lost their jobs or had their incomes dramatically cut and many lost loved ones. There was a tremendous amount of grief and helplessness in not being able to see people who were hospitalized and taking their last breaths.

So, I think that in a way there wasn’t any place to hide. For A Course in Miracles students, for people on a spiritual path, it was a tremendous opportunity to deeply reach within for something real, to really look with Jesus at what this dream is all about. I do think that during this time which is still in progress there’s been tremendous healing, undoing of guilt, going on in the background, for anybody that’s been choosing to work with this as a classroom. I know it drew me closer to the Course in some way.  I felt more drawn to and in touch with the material, more of a connection in my online A Course in Miracles class. I felt that everyone in the class had also committed to join with Jesus within at a deeper level.

I would like to talk a little bit though about that seeming physical threat, the threat of death, that this brought to the forefront of our awareness. As a body that threat is always there but we disassociate it pretty effectively. But because of the pandemic we were in touch with that constant threat all the time, having to protect ourselves and hearing the news that always led with death counts. I found myself, especially at the beginning of the pandemic, in such crazy levels of anxiety about my physical health. So, how do we practice that compromise approach that A Course in Miracles talks about where we take care of our bodies and treat our bodies kindly without becoming obsessed with trying to defend our bodies? How do we stay engaged with our right mind even as new variants of the virus continue to arise?

Well, you certainly weren’t alone in, at the beginning at least, panicking. I certainly felt that, too, and age was a factor because of how hard it was hitting the elderly. And in terms of linear years, I’m one of those more prone to get severely ill or die from it. And then, too, I couldn’t get back to New York to visit my family; it was very, very hard. I don’t know how other people handled thinking about death and that it’s going to happen to me. It certainly brought it home to me, too, and made me see how very uncomfortable I still was with that.

But one of the thoughts that occurred to me, as you were talking about the opportunities presented by the restrictions and all the limitations in the sheltering at home, was that it kind of surprised me how much I got a sense of safety and security from the world. I didn’t realize the extent of that until the pandemic continued for a few months with the resulting chaos, conflict and confusion among authorities as well as the political conflicts that were going on. There was nothing stable in the world and I realized how very affected I was by that chaos that seemed to prevail, with the scientists and doctors floundering, ICUs overrun and doctors and nurses overwhelmed.

It upset me terribly and then I realized, oh, my goodness, I really depend on there being stability in the world, that there is something stable “out there” to handle this. And I thought, this might be a very good thing for me and a lot of other people to realize their dependency on looking to something in their world for their safety, stability, and comfort. And then all of a sudden there’s practically none of that available in the world, only chaos, confusion, and conflict. That can cause you to become more depressed and anxious than ever but it could also help you turn within and realize what the Course is saying. Where does my safety lie? What gives me security?  Where does my sense of comfort really come from?

So, it stimulated that kind of a shift. But then there was this other dimension in which I could get COVID and die from it. From studying the Course, we realize from the “Obstacles to Peace” (Text Chapter 19, IV.) that it’s really an attraction to death. I believe in the thought system of death, I believe it’s real and that people are a hundred percent bodies, born into bodies, suffering in bodies, dying in bodies. I truly believe that. And as you were saying, it’s very helpful to get that out and see that I really do believe it, and then work on that contradiction with what we know the Course says and just say, well, OK, I’m not there yet.  I think I can get this virus and I don’t know if it will kill me but it could and I don’t want that to happen.

So, our obsession is still with our living bodies, not a body that dies. It’s very helpful to just see our resistance. We know what the Course says. “No one dies without his own consent.”  (Workbook lesson 152, paragraph 1, line 4) Oh, really? I’m not consenting to die but this virus could kill me. Look at the contradiction in those beliefs and just bring it out into the open, and then bring it to Jesus and say, I don’t think I believe what you said.  I can’t accept it right now and I feel very threatened. Please make this virus go away. It’s very helpful to expose the thought system we have accepted and to see how it doesn’t match what the Couse is saying at all, and then to be able to look at that without judging ourselves and even be grateful for seeing how committed we were to this thought system of birth and sacrifice and death. We didn’t realize the extent of that but now we do.

Yes. I think the gift, too, is discovering we can get through it. We are sustained within by something far stronger and saner than this fragile personal self.  Because I did feel so frightened and threatened and couldn’t find any solace in the world I had to reach within for strength and find it again and again. There is a safety within that can sustain what’s real within us no matter what. Remember in the beginning we were all thinking maybe today is the day that I’ll somehow be exposed to the virus and I have to start counting another 14 days out to see if I get it. And I remember going to Jesus again and again to connect with real safety and a lot of the time I was able to find it. I was able to sleep even though I’ve always been a poor sleeper, even knowing I might have been exposed and could get really sick and potentially die.  

In the second part of the workbook there’s that section on “What Is the Body” (Workbook II 5., paragraph 5, line 6) that says “Identify with Love and you are safe.”  My body could get this virus and die but what does that really have to do with me and who I truly am? My safety lies in Love, not in the body, not in the world. That’s a tough one but it’s also the gift of this classroom. Another lesson that comes to mind in this context is “I am sustained by the Love of God” (Workbook I 50).  Again, this is about the mind, not the body, as the lesson makes clear.

We can look at all of that with Jesus or the Holy Spirit or some symbol of eternal Love and realize that there is no linear time and this is just a thought system that I accepted and then buried. That’s all that’s going on. I’m just now working my way through all the layers of defenses and denial, all the obstacles I’ve put between that decision and my awareness in the present. So, I’ll just take it one layer at a time, but it’s not really linear. The mind is outside of time and space. It’s still the same decision to believe that I truly did separate from God, the separation is real and I’m reliving that right now. I don’t mean to minimize it but if we could remind ourselves of that as much as we can it would really help us to shift our perception that the way things appear to be is not really what is going on. There’s something behind this whole thing.

You know one thing you hear a lot in this pandemic is to trust science. And on the level of the world, within the illusion, that’s probably a good idea. Lesson 151 talks about how we trust our senses yet they’re really not reliable because they’re programmed to provide information that supports the ego thought system. It’s helpful to see how much we rely on our senses. It asks us to suspend that and look at everything from a completely different point of view, so that our point of view is no longer as a body with a physical world out there, but as the Holy Spirit sees. And the Holy Spirit doesn’t see bodies.

So, within the illusion it’s a good idea to trust science as long as we think the world is real but, in the end, absolutely not. I was just reflecting on that recently because there’s so much talk about trusting the science and how that speaks to the two levels the Course speaks on.

So, it’s really that compromise approach that as long as we think we’re bodies we need to trust the science but even as we do, we need to, at the level of the mind, open to Jesus/Holy Spirit’s awareness that bodies are a defense against the truth of our abstract union with God. Bodies aren’t really born, don’t really get sick, can’t really die.

Right. Speaking of bodies as a defense against the truth . . . Ken gave a workshop (just released on audio) titled “Strengthening the Mind’s Immune System” in which he explained how we can use our experiences of the body to get us back to the mind: for example, our preoccupation with the body is really a projection of our preoccupation with the guilt in our minds.

We have to be careful not to go into massive denial but there are just a lot of really helpful opportunities that have been coming up that we can use to go deeper within our process, opening to what this Course is really saying and appreciating it at a deeper level. Seeing how different it is from the laws of the world—as we learn in Lesson 76 “I am under no laws but God’s” –but also recognizing as you said that I still believe I’m a body and I’m scared. That’s very honest. I think I’m a body and I get scared when I hear about a possible fourth wave of virus infections.

Yes, it’s still a threat in the dream and we’re not sure where it’s going to go. But at least the vaccines for many, not all, because not everybody agrees with this, but within the science in the dream the vaccines are incredibly effective for vaccines and their benefits appear to far outweigh any possible risks for most people. So, there’s a lot more optimism about that. I notice that in myself because I’ve been lucky enough to get a second dose and I’m almost fully vaccinated. But just like everything else in the dream there are all kinds if inequities in being able to get a vaccine appointment here in the US and in parts of the world that do not have enough access to vaccines.

I’m optimistic that I’m going to be able to see my daughter in a couple months. Not being able to see her has been a great source of pain for me personally and I’m very excited about that but I’m trying to look with Jesus at where I think my salvation lies, too. I thought that the end of the pandemic would mean I would be so much happier and able to deal and I’m realizing that’s a lie. Part of me actually feels a certain reticence about going back to my busy American life and all the external, often mindless running around and socializing. I guess it’s all helping us see that our peace and happiness and safety really have nothing to do with the world. And that the neediness we feel in our special love relationships can always only be truly satisfied within through our choice to join with that loving relationship within our mind. If we can’t really connect with the real all-inclusive Love in our mind, no relationship can ever give us the love we are seeking or take it away.

Yes, that’s beautiful. And then to be able to integrate that into how you relate to another person. That’s what our relationships now are all about. There’s the temptation to go right back to where you were before the pandemic where you think you can relax now because you’re vaccinated. We start thinking, at least I won’t die from it, but what is behind what that? By saying being vaccinated will save me I’m saying that the thought system of suffering and death is real–and then realize that’s where I was before the pandemic. We have to catch ourselves and remind ourselves of what you just said. My safety lies in Love; it’s within me, I’m never without it. I just believe that I’m without it and it’s someone else’s fault. They took it from me. But I can be grateful that I now realize how much I don’t believe it and that what the Couse is saying is all that really makes sense. I realize that I want that more than I don’t want it.

Yes, and I think now that the pressure of that seeming threat has eased a little bit, I find I can catch my projections sooner. So, maybe all this reactivity I felt and worked with really did help undo some of the underlying guilt. It’s that idea again that the healing is happening in the background even if I’m still feeling reactive and defensive as long as I’m still taking the little steps of forgiveness Jesus asks of us. Eventually the guilt does dissolve, the pain of holding on to it is just too much, too exhausting, and now maybe I don’t reach for the projection as quickly or am able to catch myself more quickly.

Right, that’s the idea of trusting that your safety lies within even though that principle may be above your level of understanding. You trust in it because of your little willingness to take these little steps each day, each minute. And then you realize, wow, that was a big one.

The issues you raised at the start of this conversation you seem to have resolved for yourself. From your perspective it seems as if you haven’t made any progress but have you ever been right about that?

Well, one thing that’s true for me in working with A Course in Miracles is that almost always my first reaction comes from the ego and is wrong. I’m learning to be happily wrong and that’s really all we’re asked to do, to entertain the possibility that maybe I’m wrong about the cause of these emotions, lesson five, “I’m not upset for the reason I think.”

Yes, and from my perspective of believing I’m separate from the Truth, how can I truly understand anything?

Well, that seems like a very good point to end on and one we can’t hear enough as Course students. We can’t really understand anything when we’re identified with ourselves as a body. But fortunately, we have a teacher within always ready to help us take another step toward his healed perception, to lead us gently toward the eventual awakening to our true identity as one innocent child of God.

Thank you so much for sharing your insight and process with us Rosemarie. It’s always so helpful and healing to connect with you.  

Thank you very much for doing this, Susan.

It is truly my pleasure.